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[dmullenasc]

In the prints, the colors got darker and less saturated with ENR.  Since usually this approach was decided in prep, costumes, props, lighting colors, etc. were tested to see if any compensation was needed. For example, blood effects in “Sleepy Hollow” were adjusted, using a bright red blood on set so that it would not look too black due to the ENR process. I can’t tell you the specific effect on each color shade but by the early 2000s, colorists had their own digital simulation of ENR for DIs, reducing the usage of ENR itself — though in truth, it was not the same thing because leaving silver in the print itself allows the blacks to be deeper than D-MAX, the max density a print can achieve, a sort of blacker-than-black. There were problems with this though, silver in the print (just as with true b&w prints) tends to absorb infrared heat from projector bulbs, reducing the life of the print.

One issue that always comes up with a desaturation process is that visually, pastel colors seem to drop in saturation faster than primary colors, so a subtle color like in skin tones will go monochromatic faster than a bright red stop sign will. This is why it is better to control saturation first with production design and costumes so as to preserve skin tone saturation relative to everything else in the frame. Of course, with digital color-correction, one can isolate objects and adjust saturation more selectively though that can be time-consuming.

In general, it’s always better to get the look you want first by what’s in front of the camera, second by how you film it with your camera, and third by post-production.

 

[Stip]

A follow up question since you mentioned ENR.

Aesthetic saturation is much easier to achieve than aesthetic desaturation in a digital pipeline in my opinion.

With silver retention techniques, do you know if there was anything special about the desaturation of colors? Was it an even process or were some colors or densities more affected than others?

Since many movies that used it then still had digital color correction afterwards, it’s not easy to tell just from looking at the films.

[Stip]

Wow, thank you so much, David.

The ‘black/white paint’ analogy helps me understand the impact on color.

There is an element of anarchy in these analog processes that are not present in the digital world. To be clear, I don’t think they are missing or needed, nonetheless I find them – and the way people found ways to tame, mold and then use them – fascinating.

Thanks again.

[dmullenasc]

In terms of color, adding a weak amount of overall white light on a negative will lift the blacks and wash-out the colors, it’s like mixing a tiny bit of white paint into colored paints.

Leaving a little amount of black silver in a print will deepen the blacks and darken the colors, slightly softening them — it’s like mixing a tiny amount of black paint into colored paints.

It’s a bit harder to visualize the opposite — flashing a print or leaving silver in the negative.

Flashing a print with white light fogs the highlights with density (normally a brighter area in the image is denser on the negative, more clear on the print) so your whites get a bit greyed, less intense, lowering contrast in the highlights. Does that affect saturation? Maybe… but only because contrast, black level and saturation are all tied together, so softening the highlights and lowering the contrast will make the colors seem a bit softer.

Leaving black silver in the negative means the highlights in the subject will get denser as if overexposed (some people compensate by underexposing the stock).  So there is an increase in contrast but mostly in the highlights. There is also a larger increase in visible graininess compared to leaving silver in the print because print stock has a very low ASA so the silver grains are quite small compared to those in camera negative. Again, does leaving black silver in the negative affect saturation? Sort of, it’s a bit like having a black & white negative layered on top of your color negative.

[dmullenasc]

You could affect the release prints by altering the IP or IN — plus there were silver retention processes for prints like ENR that increased the density of the blacks and the contrast in the shadows. There was also some darkening of colors and loss of saturation from leaving silver in the print.

All of this is to say that you worked backwards from your planned release print strategy in terms of the negative.

Flashing the negative increases the base fog level, lifting the blacks and bringing up some shadow detail normally buried in the contrast of the print, especially an ENR print which I believe “Fight Club” used (or Deluxe’s version called ACE.)

[dmullenasc]

One thing to keep in mind is that pre-digital color-correction for features, you mainly had a standardized contrast (gamma) & saturation using Kodak print stock and FCP processing. Black level could be affected by printer lights (which in turn affected contrast & saturation), but this was mitigated by the fact that most prints came from dupe negatives — the extra density in the original negative had been compensated for when making the color-corrected IP/IN so release prints used a normal set of printer lights (James Cameron got around this by asking the lab to make lighter IPs & denser INs for “Titanic”.)

[Stip]

This is probably aimed at David to answer as he already did in a thread on Cinematography. com:

For night exteriors on ‘Fight Club’ they pre-flashed the negative at 5% in the lab. I understand it was to get more details in the shadows. But I am curious what this process actually does/did to the film overall. On the above mentioned thread David describes it as:

A fogged/flashed image has lighter blacks, lower contrast, softer colors. (…) flashing maybe only brings out another half-stop of detail in the shadows at the most, after that, you’re just milking the blacks up.

I am curious what you/David meant with ‘softer colors’ and also what any other, even tiny, effect pre-flashing in the lab would have on the image? And if these effects are global or if it also introduced some local changes?

[LucaM]

Despite unexperience,  countless problems, difficulties of every kind, errors and mistakes, today we wrapped up the principal photography of our short movie! I know It won’t be a masterpiece and a simply acceptable result Is my goal, yet i wanted to celebrate here too since Roger, David and you all have had, with your example and advices, a huge role in pushing me forward when everybody was telling me to give up!

[JakeFromWhatFarm]

Hello Roger!

 

I believe this was posted at some point in the forum before it was updated and since can’t be found. I wanted to know if you remember how you did the lighting in these car scenes in sicario? Especially when you can see out the front window but Silvio’s face is still illuminated

[Gonzarelli]

David.  I get it. The lavender is a thinner weave and therefore not likely to be available so large.   Thanks for you advice.

[mskb]

Hello James!

Wow! That’s so great!

I have been traveling. Last night, I wanted to relax and listen to the Deakins podcast. Oh my! I was caught by a complete surprise! We have got you, David and Roger, discussing TRUE GRIT! I am not fully done yet, I will post some feedback over this weekend, but easily one of the best episodes I have heard. Very focussed clearly articulated questions from the macro – to the – micro! Exactly what we all wanted!

Thank you James, Roger and David!
Kumar

PS: We will definitely write to Chivo. I will also request the forum members to do the same! 🙂 Chivo may just think it is easier to simply be on the podcast, than go through emails asking him to join us on the Team Deakins podcast!

[Gonzarelli]

Thanks David.  So you recommend a single net type bobbinette if that is what you are using?  Have you ever used a lavender bobbinette?  Thanks for the tip on the Hampshire Frost. That is another idea I will test.

[dmullenasc]

It’s usually stretched on a large frame (like a Single Net) and placed about halfway between the window and the backing. You just have to consider any hard sunlight effect lighting because if it passes through the net, it will be washed out like its hitting a dirty window. So if the net is back enough to get the hard sunlight unit in front of it, that might be good.  Also consider keeping other light off of the net like the backing light, again, because it will increase the haze effect — so in this case, you probably want the backing light to fall behind the net.

Another option is to neatly cover the windows with 1/8 Hampshire Frost, which will blur the view (the more blurring when the backing is farther away, so sometimes this trick is better when the backing has to be too close to the window so the blurring from the frost is subtle.)

I’ve also used 1/2 Soft Frost on a large frame to blur a backing — in this case you control the softening by the distance from the backing. Sometimes just having the frame about a foot from the backing is enough to make it softer.

 

[Gonzarelli]

I need some advice on  how bobbinette is used to diffuse backings.  There is black and white available, and I assume there is lavender too.  What is commonly used? Is it placed closer to the backing or more toward the windows of the set?   There may not be hard and fast rules but I would like any advice on what one looks for and the best way to set it up. I currently have a backing which is about 12 feet from the set and need some way to diffuse it to make it look more realistic.   Any advice on this is very welcome.  Thanks.

[LucaM]

Hi! While i’ve got no professional experience – so i can be of little help – i’m in your same situation (shooting a short with a flashlight scene) and from what i tested you could consider these details :

– some lights could cause flickering and bands in the camera (a frequency problem, if i am not wrong), so do a test if possible before buying or shooting the real scene. This said you can obtain good results even with cheap flashlights from DIY stores, as long as they are strong enough

– you could use a reflecting surface to lighten a bit the actor face (when i asked a similar question Roger wrote that he did something like that in the cave scene of Prisoners) in close ups, since actually the flashlight points forward, not on actor face

–  i am altering  the WB to mimick a night scene and i’m setting the other ligths color temperature to create some kind of color contrast or armony with the flashlight color, according to what suits better the scene

– to actually see the light beam you need thickness in the atmosphere, and it’s complicated to create it in a forest without hazing machines

– good luck and have fun!