RED EPIC

[Andrew Rieger]

I am a little surprised by the Red and Alexa bickering here. Hey if you think that Red is a total scam and that their cameras are vastly overrated, than don't shoot on it. If you think that the Alexa is an expensive German paperweight which will be obsolete in a couple of years, than don't shoot on it. Thank God we have product diversity or we would all be shooting Panavision.

Here are my defenses and criticisms of both systems:

Red Epic: Lets face it, Red is the new kid on the block and they still have a long way to go to win the respect of a lot of doubters. Red has wrongly been associated from day one with the indie market due to their undercut pricing. Some issues early one have hurt their reputation and there are many who will not give the company or their products the time of day. Sure, I can say that they have won over the hearts of David Fincher, Steven Soderbergh, Peter Jackson. Hell, I can tell you that Terrence Malick (who is a notoriously picky perfectionist) is shooting night scenes in his next film with it but that does not mater if you have had a bad experience in the past. I imagine that starting a camera company from scratch is a ton of work even when you have deep pockets so give credit where credit is due. Red is breaking new ground with HDR, resolution and sensitivity but until the Epic is in the hands of guys like Roger, it is still just a prototype. That being said, Red has made a lot of mistakes. It is true that the Reduser forum is populated by fanboys who worship the ground that Jannard walks on and frankly, it is a little annoying how everyone there raves every time he opens his mouth but it is hard to deny that the man is driven and that he really does want to revolutionize the way images are acquired. In my opinion, he speaks his mind too often and makes release date predictions that are unlikely but never call his company a scam. Red packs a ton of innovation into their products and takes big risks that pay off most of the time. Arri is much more predictable which can be either a good thing or a bad thing. I think Red has a long way to go but when you see that they have working prototypes that shoot in 5K resolution at 120 frames per second, dynamic range up to 18 stops and noise free images at ISO 800, it is hard not to get a little excited. Yes the cameras have problems with fan noise, the reliability is not 100%, there is no optical viewfinder (although Jannard said they would build some if there was enough demand), the workflow still has some pitfalls and it will never look 100% identical to film but at half the price of the Alexa with features that surpass it in some ways, it is hard to complain. Give them credit, they have tried to pack a way more powerful Red One MX into something the size of a Hasslblad. Who else is really interested in modularity? If you don't like Red, don't shoot on it but please drop the whole Red is a scam line, it is getting old.

Arri Alexa: Arri beats Red in the brand name department. More award winning films have been shot on Arri cams than Red could ever dream to shoot so naturally, people are going to take their product more seriously, especially if they have been in the industry for decades. Arri builds rock solid reliable products that have stood the test of time and I am sure the Alexa is the same. Arri spent a great deal of time emulating the look of film so if you are obsessed with retaining that look, than Arri beats Red (although I have seen a couple of films that were shot on Red that I honestly could not tell were not film, namely Winter's Bone and The Secret In Their Eyes). The Alexa currently has better sensitivity and dynamic range than the Red One MX. Will the Alexa have better sensitivity than the next gen Epic? I don't know but I doubt it. The Alexa is WAY quieter than Red so that is something that should be considered and from what I have heard from people who have tried Epic prototypes, it is also a noisy-ish camera but that is to be expected considering the amount of gear they have crammed into such a small package. Arri has gone down the safe road and I anticipate that with a larger case, lower operating temperature and Arri build quality, the Alexa will a more reliable camera overall. To many, reliability is more important than lower cost, HDR, 18 stops of DR, 5K resolution and a tiny case. To others, the added features of the Epic are worth the risk. In my opinion, you are purchasing peace of mind with the Arri. Some DP have said that they have produced beautiful images with the Red but are still a little nervous using it and believe me, as a Reduser member, I see threads with titles like "dropped frames-please help", "cannot get scene off of CF card", "build 250 not loading up to my cam" and "histogram not showing up" all the time. Red usually fixes these issues but they are still very much R&D as they go along which is too risky for some. Arri has none of that (at least not that I have heard of). Still I wish Arri was a little more cutting edge with the Alexa. It does everything well but does not have any real stand out features. 3.5K resolution is fine for 2k projectors of making 35mm prints but with many theaters installing 4k projectors, I can see the appeal of a 5K chip, it is more future proof. The Alexa cannot do high speed and it only goes up to 60 frames per second. The Red goes up to 120 in 5K and 250 in 2k. If your are looking for unique angles and placing cameras in tight spaces, than the Epic size is perfect for you. The Alexa is a tank but I fear it is a tank that will be replaced in a few years when 4K projection and post become the norm.

All in all both systems appear to be a win. Red is still in the prototype stage so it has a long way to go but the test footage is promising and their whole HDRx thing does appear to produce a level of dynamic range unheard of in digital cameras. Their "Magic Motion" motion blur also seems to more closely mimic how the human eye sees motion but to those used to film camera motion blur, it will seem odd and "videoish". Again, what is technically superior is not always what is aesthetically superior and many will say that Alexa footage projected next to Red footage looks more filmic. Arri has released a solid product that I imagine will be more popular with established Hollywood players but Red is more popular with the next generation of filmmakers who by in large are less concerned with tradition and brand name. Many came from DVX's and 35mm adapters. They only know digital. Over time, adherence to the "celluloid aesthetic" will drop away. But what do I know, I am just a 20 year old photography student who shoots with a 70's Nikon and does video projects with a Panasonic GH1 and a Sony EX1. Times are a changing so it is good to keep your options open. If I had to shoot a film with no back up cameras, I would go Alexa but if I could afford to rent two bodies I would go Epic.

[Andrew Rieger]

I just wanted to address some of these points, not starting a war just stating my opinion on the matter.

How many promises will RED have to break before everyone realizes that it's the biggest scam on the market?

I agree that Jannard is over optimistic with his product release dates but if you took the time to look into Epic development, you will see that there are moving along at a blistering pace. Keep in mind that Arri is much more secretive about their product releases. You never know, the Alexa could have had a ton of delays that we will never know about. When they first released info on the camera, it was mostly done and already shooting material in places like St, Peters Basilica. Red talks about their plans long before the even start physical work. I personally think that is a bed idea but most of the Red Faithful like that they are able to correspond with the Red engineers online. Good luck talking to Sony engineer about the F35. I believe that Red's online presence is comparable to Roger's on this forum. Sure there are other great DP's out there but how many talk to average Joes about their techniques like Roger does? Sure there are other great camera companies but how many will give you the time of day if you do not have an ASC title after your name?

I could easily list off several big name Directors and Cinematographers that wouldn't be caught dead using a Red Camera.

Like who? I'm sure you could find a couple but most who have vowed never to shoot Red have also vowed never to shoot digitally. Tarantino said he would never shoot digitally but even he said in a recent interview that it is the direction that the industry is going and he will have to get on board sooner or later. Spielberg said he would never shoot on anything other than film but with 3D, even he is looking more into digital acquisition.

If you would actually like to discuss the facts of the Red One, it's a 3.2K camera claiming to produce a 4K image, It claims to offer over 11 stops of dynamic range when it in fact offers only 8. 3.2K and 8 stops are impressive enough in their own right, but when you consider what sacrifices that the camera makes, it's easy to see why the camera is inferior to the professional digital cinematography cameras.

The sensor is 4.5k (recent MX upgrade) but Red never claimed that the resolution stayed at 4k through the post process. Yes, it is a 3.5ish K camera but the Arri sensor is 3.5K which is designed to produce a stunning 2K image which it does very well, so Red is not the only one that makes K claims. Red is an 8 stop DR camera? Really? I am not sure where you got that. The MX sensor has been independently rated at 12 to 13.5 stops of DR. Please get your facts straight. The Canon DSLR's are like 6 to 8 stops of dynamic range, not the Red. The Red is inferior to "professional" digital cinema cameras? I love how you don't think that Red is professional. I guess for it to be professional, it needs to be a six figure rental house only piece of kit. What if Arri later comes out with an Alexa replacement that costs $15,000? Is it no longer professional.

Despite Red's superior marketing and online promotion, the best engineers and technicians in the digital world still work for Sony.

They have more engineers, not better engineers. Guys like Graeme Natress at Red would talk circles around most so called experts. I guess those perfect engineers at Sony are the reason why their cameras are two or three years behind Arri and Red. Hell, even Aaton is more cutting edge with their 4K digital Penelope back. The F35 is fine for now but with a six-figure price tag, I would hope Sony would be more future proof. They make 4K projectors but no cameras to produce footage to project at that resolution.

I can't see how you can take a company like Red seriously when they claim to soon be coming out with a camera with a 168mm wide sensor capable of capturing resolutions at 28,000 by 9000 pixels.

I am assuming that you are referring to the 6x17 panorama camera? Ya, it is a little impractical but I would not doubt that Red has the capacity to build the thing. And they never said that it is close to release. Jannard said that it is least 5 years+ away. There is a Swiss company with a 6x17 CMOS camera that you can buy at around $60,000 and Canon has built working sensors larger than that. Right now, it is more processing, post and storage restrictions that prevent such a camera from existing but that does not mean they will not build it. I am sure that when Jannard said that he wanted to fit a 5K S35 sensor with usable ISO ranges up to 3200, with a dynamic range of 16+ stops and frame rates in excess of 120 frames per second in a case only a little larger that a DSLR, people laughed but if you have held or seen an Epic in person, you know it is not vaporware.

The people at Red are more listening to some kind of amateurish filmmaker instead of listening to real cinematographers as well as directors.

I think, it is because of their reduser.net. Red shows some kind of product and everybody freaks out, whether this is good or bad, so they think that everything is great, what they do.

So far the only thing that I have heard cinematographers ask for that Red does not offer is an optical viewfinder. Most customers get by fine with the digifinder and the cost of an optical would raise the price dramatically. In fact, there was an option for an optical finder at one point but Red received only two or three orders which did not work out in terms of development costs. Believe me, they do listen to real cinematographers. There are a few ASC members that frequent the boards on Reduser quite regularly.

I think it's interesting that despite all of this talk and the fact that all of these big name directors have been shooting on Red, there has yet to be one picture shot on the Red that has been nominated for an Oscar for Best Cinematography. Even more interesting that for the past two years, the Oscar has gone to films shot on high end digital cameras....captured at 1080p, and 2K (which is basically just 1080P for snobs).

Red has essentially been thrown into the spotlight by several embellished numbers and this absolutely ludicrous claim that "Oooh, but just wait until you see what Red comes out with next year....its gonna change everything", give me a break...in 100 years Slumdog and Avatar will still be visually mind blowing...and films like "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt", will still look like shit.

The Academy award for best cinematography has nothing to do with the camera but what you do with it. Slumdog Millionaire used an SI2K which has produced some of the worst digital footage results I have seen personally but it looked stunning when Boyle used it so there you go. And about Avatar: the CG stuff (60% of the film) looked great in Imax but the live action stuff filmed in 1080p fell apart.

I think, "The Social Network" looks terrible. It has the same problems, than any movie shot on Red. Not good looking colors, problems in movement and so on.

I saw the trailer on my Macbook, in a normal cinema and on a giant IMAX-screen, everytime the same effect, that we start to discuss, what Fincher likes about the look. His previous movies shot on Viper are better looking. Remember the days, when Fincher and his DPs used 35mm? "Fight Club" has great cinematography.

I disagree, I saw it projected in 4k a test screening and it looked great. The footage was very distinct and unique. It did not look like film but it also did not look very digital. It was somewhere in the middle. The colors had more to do with the palette than the sensor. The DP stated he was going for a low contrast look with a limited color palette for both the Boston and Silicon Valley locations. Red has never had an issue with color. Have you seen Winter's Bone or The Secret in Their Eyes? If you want a vibrant explosion of color, the cam can do that as well, that is why Arri and Red went for Raw, it is very flexible.

I've had a chance to see some Red 4K Footage which was shot with a very capable eye, projected on one of the finest Sony 4K projectors and I'll say, from my eye, it did not compare to the professional 1080p cameras (Genesis, F35,D-21) not to mention 35mm. Obviously this can be dependent on who is behind the camera, but the way that people have been treating MX and Epic, it does not add up.

Arri has been around for a very long time because it makes exceptional products. Despite these directors who have decided to try using Red, Red still has a marginalized spot in the professional markeet compared to Sony and Arri cameras. Red, however, is absolutely the best option for low budget and independet market simply because it is priced so reasonably...but you do get what you play for.

Wait what, D21 and Genesis footage that looked better than Red MX, I doubt that. That might be possible if you smeared grease on the Red's lens. There is a reason why Arri replaced the D21 and why the Panavision Genesis is getting less use each year. I believe Secreteriat was shot on Genesis and it screams of digital capture in the previews. It sounds like you are bashing a product without knowing the facts. In terms of cost, you get way more than you pay for. At over 7,000 Red One bodies in circulation, I do not believe that Red is marginalized at all. With films like Pirates 4, Soderbergh's Contagion, Fincher's The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, Terrence Malick's next film and future Peter Jackson projects being shot on Red, expect industry acceptance to increase even more. Sorry to tell you this but Red is no longer stuck in the indie sandbox. Red is popular with next generation filmmakers like Neil Blomkamp and I would not be surprised if Red is a household name in 15 years with the power of a company like Panavision. Everyone has to start somewhere. You forget that companies like Arri and Aaton had to prove themselves in order to get where they are today. Expect the same from Red.

I think people forget that a mere 4 years ago, the first 2006 Red One prototype looked like this, no joke:



bboxcam

It is remarkable that in those 4 years they have shot a Best Foreign Picture winner, a Best Picture nominee and have a very strong chance of having a film shot with their cameras win Best Picture in the next Academy Awards. Give Credit where credit is due.

[Roger]

I agree with the thrust of what you say. The Red camera has come a long way and to force every other manufacturer to 'up their game' is no mean feat. There is no question that both the Red camera and the Alexa are capable of producing images of the highest quality.

[Andrew Rieger]

I posted this in another thread but I moved it here because I thought it was more relevant here.

About Red vs Alexa. Pick the best tool for the job as you stated. Did Red push Arri to release a better camera? I'm not sure but I do belive that Red pushed Arri to offer a cheaper camera. It is interesting how the price of Arri is dropping as Red increases. The original Red One cost $17,000 for the body and the new Epic is projected to cost $28,000 for the body and even more if you add the modules needed to add all features of the Alexa, so in reality the cameras are pretty comperable in price. Both companies have solid products that pros swear by and the competition can only be good for consumers. I expect other companies to enter the price war fray including Sony and Aaton so I imagine we will have more options than just Epic and Alexa.

Comparing the Alexa to the Epic is like comparing a Corvette ZR1 to an Audi R8. Both are speed machines that will get you from point A to Point B blisteringly fast. Both have a large fanbase. The Audi, like the Alexa, is more exotic, built with higher quality materials and built to very high standard. The corvette, like the Epic, is cheaper and not built to the same standards but in some cases it will outperform the Audi. The Corvette accelerates faster and has a higher top speed but the Audi looks better and handles better. If I were going to a carshow or to a twisty roadcourse, I would take the Audi. If I were going to a dragstrip, I would take the Corvette.

Here are a couple of scenarios where I could see one camera being chosen over the other:

1. 1930's gangster film
Adavantage: Alexa
The Alexa, with its sensor designed to mimic film more closely, would be perfect for this kind of project. One of the reasons why the photography in Public Enemies did not work for me was the fact that the very HD video-ish nature of the footage took me out of the story. It did not feel period correct and it kept distracting me. The Red One and Epic still to a large extent have this sterile sharp look that is hard to eliminate completely with post manipulation. The Alexa would be my tool of choice for depicting historical subjects. I have seen some period films shot on Red that were well shot but did look a little odd.

2. Run and gun small crew documentary
Advantage: Red Epic
With its small size, powerful features and lower cost, the Epic would be more suited than an Alexa (in my opinion) for a documentary. For starters, you draw less attention to yourself with a smaller camera and since it looks like a stills camera, you are less likely to be hassled by security. Since you have less control over the lighting, the increased sensitivity and higher dynamic range may be beneficial. Most documentaries today are shot digitally so the more digital look of the Epic will not seem out of place. Smaller cameras allow you to film in tighter spaces and since you have less control over the location, a more flexible camera may be an advantage. With the rise of video DSLR's, many stills shooters are jumping into motion and may be more comfortable with the form factor of the Epic since it is around the size of a Hasselblad.

3. Any film that is shooting some scenes digitally and some on film
Advantage: Alexa
Again, since it looks closer to film than the Epic, the Alexa should cut and grade better with film.

4. Sci-Fi film with heavy CG work
Advantage: Epic
With more resolution, the Epic is potentially better suited for FX work and the cleanness (some would say sterile and lifeless) look of digital may also integrate better with CG elements in the film.

Just my 2 cents. I could be wrong.

[filmbob]

I have been shooting for 38 years (since I was 4 on 8 mm) and I am just not satisfied with the final image of the Red. For low-budget, I would rather use a Panasonic HVX-200 with an SG-Blade and Zeiss Super Speed Lenses. It produces a much more film like look and is far less expensive. I hope to use this for a film we are shooting in Switzerland in MArch 2011...I'll post stuff when we have it.

here is an example by some young filmmakers who turned me onto the idea:

http://vimeo.com/7732417
DP-Pete Schuermann & Dillon Novak

If I could afford to, I would just hire Roger to shoot my films and trust him with the look.

Here are some examples of Red used on low budget features...the post was a challenge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaBg7prX56M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKy7ecxte8Q

[Francesco]

About Red vs Alexa. Pick the best tool for the job as you stated.

Andrew, while I agree with you on most of the things you wrote, there's one tiny little detail I would add: I can go to a rental house right now and rent an Alexa (I may have to wait because from what I can see they're renting them out like crazy), while no one knows when Epic is going to be released. Sure, whenever that happens, it could be a great camera to work with (personally I don't like the design of it, just like I don't like the design of the Red One, but I can't judge a camera without having used it), but until then it's not like choosing between a Corvette ZR1 and an Audi R8, it's more like choosing between a Mercedes SLK and a prototype for the flying car.

Mr. Jannard can say "release dates change all the time" or "we don't know what we're doing", and that would be fine with his fans, but for most professionals those things have a huge influence on how the company is perceived (here in Italy, if you talk to many working cinematographers, the word you hear the most is "toy" referred to the Red and "real camera" referred to Alexa): have you seen the Red website lately? IMHO it's a joke, with a gas mask at the bottom of it (?!?!), they even added the word "professional" to their logo, it looks like the website for an amateur teen heavy-metal band, definitely not for a camera that wants to compete with the big boys (Panavision, Arri, Sony). Mind you, I'm talking about perception, we all know the camera can produce good images in the right hands, and it's being used on huge productions, but unfortunately for Red sometimes how a company is perceived is very important (since we're talking about Alexa, have you seen the ArriDigital website lately? That's what I'm talking about...).

[koltron]

well said Fancesco...that is a good site; the Alexa Camera Simulator is fun to play with and very well designed: http://www.arridigital.com/technical/simulator

[Arben]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arben

Dear Jim,

Is the Arri Alexa one of the reasons for Epic being so late on production. Improving the features so that it can overcome Alexa's performance.

Quote:

Jarred Land

What was to overcome? Even the first Epic prototypes did everything the Alexa does now.. The Alexa is basically an 1080p HD-SDI camera head... Prores recording? An Epic with a HD-SDI nano recorder is still 1/3rd the weight and 1/3rd the size...

The supposed latitude advantage? someone confirmed that is from the use of a ultracon filter over the sensor ( which also is a reason the Alexa looks so soft ) and thats before you even turn HDRx™ on.

People can put the Alexa and the Red One in the same sentence, but the Epic is truly in a whole different league.

Love Arri, and the Alexa is a great camera, but i promise you the Alexa didn't slow us down one bit The only difference is they ended up shipping a non-complete beta camera and we didn't.

[Francesco]

typical of RedUser, I'm afraid: useless hypocritical political-correctness ("love arri, alexa is great, etc" right after they said something negative about it), unprofessional attitude ("someone confirmed"..someone who?), and plainly ridicolous comments ("The only difference is they -ARRI- ended up shipping a non-complete beta camera and we didn't"...what about Red One?), without providing ANY useful information. For instance, when is the camera going to be available to the public?

As I wrote before, I'm sure Epic will be good enough to shoot beautiful pictures in the right hands, it will be appropriate for some projects and not for others, in the end it's just another tool visual storytellers will be able to use. It's just a camera, for crying out loud!
If there's one truly bad effect caused by Red (the company) supporting the RedUser forum (or by choosing this kind of marketing strategy or branding), is the turning of the whole "Red Vs. Any other camera manufacturer" argument in something that is pathetically similar to silly internet forum "discussions" like "Star Wars vs Star Trek".

When camera manufacturers released new cameras in the past, people would just go to a rental house, test them, and use them accordingly. Everyone has their personal preferences, but no one who liked Panavision cameras would go and bash Arri (or vice-versa) the way Red fanboys do (and I'm sure they will keep doing this as more manufacturers release cameras that could "threaten" Red). It's just so pathetically childish...

[Arben]

Francesco the thread is about Red Epic, someone else (Alexa fan) bring the comparation in the discussion. There is nothing wrong and the least childish to be a Red Epic fan considering the fact that this camera will change the world of cinematography, providing dynamic range over 13 stops and resolution of 5K this camera will exceed any other camera on the market.

[Francesco]

this camera will change the world of cinematography

quod erat demonstrandum, I rest my case.

Obviously the point I was trying to make is not clear enough. I'll let others continue this conversation, I don't really know what more I could add to all of this than what I've already written.

Have a good evening, Arben

[Marco]

Franceco, you are abolutely right. There is nothing to add at this moment.

We should continue discussion the Epic, when we all made our tests with it. I had the chance, to have it in my hands at the IBC and I did not like the DSLR-formfactor, but image quality should be judged, when it is finally released.

Jannard also said at the beginning, that Red One is 4k and RAW... we all know, how this ended...

[Arben]

I will be LMAO when the Red Company will win the technical achievement award by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.

[Francesco]

Franceco, you are abolutely right. There is nothing to add at this moment.

We should continue discussion the Epic, when we all made our tests with it. I had the chance, to have it in my hands at the IBC and I did not like the DSLR-formfactor, but image quality should be judged, when it is finally released.

Thanks, Marco, that's exactly how I feel about it. The things that "concern" me the most about Epic (from a camera assistant point of view), solely based on the pictures and videos I've seen online, are the number of buttons and the DSLR configuration/ergonomics, but there's no way I would judge a camera by looking at pictures of it, especially when it's a modular system: maybe it's going to be the easiest camera to work with, maybe not. When it will be available to the public (and we still don't know that), I'll try to test it, just like I would with any other camera.

I will be LMAO when the Red Company will win the technical achievement award by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.

I'm sure you won't be alone, Arben, though other people will probably be laughing for different reasons.
Other people (including me) won't be laughing and they won't be crying either, because - hopefully - they will be too busy working with it or with another camera that cinematographers will pick based on what they feel is the right tool for the job.

Again, it's JUST A CAMERA!

[Roger]

Yes, a camera is a camera, whether it's a Red or a 535, until a human being breathes life into it.